I had an interesting conversation with one of my friends on the metro the other day that I can’t stop thinking about. I don’t know how it started or exactly what was said but I know it ended up an hour long debate about Christianity and me at a loss for words.
My friend was raised in the church as, what I would call, a C&E Catholic (Christmas and Easter). He had heard the Christian jargon year after year and was left with more questions than answers. My friend was going to a party with me and Roz that night and the 3 of us were traveling together. I think I mentioned that I wasn’t going to drink that night, because I had given up alcohol for Lent. He asked if I was Catholic, assuming that Lent was only a Catholic thing and then asked what the difference between Catholic and Methodist was.
I poorly explained that the big difference is Catholic and Protestant which Roz could explain a lot better since she went to Catholic school and knew the details of both. Then expanded that we follow the teachings of John Wesley but mostly we focus on loving everyone equally and have a lot of loose interpretations on current topics. Giving Homosexuality as an example where the church says the lifestyle is a sin but we still accept the individuals and can have gay members and baptize couple’s children.
I think all of that is correct but I know it’s not best way to put my church in a positive light. I surprised myself describing it as “more of a hippie love everyone” idea as opposed to the bible belt extreme. What made me down play something that I believe so strongly in?
This is kinda how it went as far as I can remember:
he asked, “how can Jesus and God be equal if he is the Father?”
“We believe in the trinity”
“I never got that either.”
“Oh oh I know this one! The best explanation I have heard is that the trinity is like water. It’s the same substance in 3 forms. If God is the water, Jesus is ice and the Holy Spirit is gas. They are all the same thing just different aspects.”
“So he’s not really the father?”
“I always saw that as personification. It’s not literal it’s more to explain the relationship”
“Why do you need all three is God powerful enough on his own? Like does the holy spirit do anything?”
“The holy spirit lives within you, every believer”
“And does what?”
“Lives there, stays with you, guides you, your own little piece of God.”
“So why did Jesus have to come as a baby, wouldn’t it be easier to come as a man? That’s when he did stuff.”
“Jesus is supposed to be our example as humans. He is an example for how you should act as a baby, as a teenager, and as an adult.”
“But there is nothing in the bible about his childhood.”
“True. It makes him more relatable because he went through every part of human life and was still perfect. He never sinned.”
“So what does his dying have to do with me? Wasn’t that God’s plan?”
“He took on the sins of the world and saved us from death.”
“See I don’t get that? How does his dying change anything, people still die.”
“He was the Lamb, it was like a sacrifice from old days. You know?”
“No.”
“In the Old Testament you had to give the best of your animals or crops or whatever as a sacrifice. It shows appreciation and priorities and stuff. You give your best to God first. And that’s also how the priests survived, because they could eat a portion or something as part of the ritual. And your sacrifice is supposed to be perfect. You can’t give a sick lamb or something because that’s just wrong. So Jesus is the sacrifice.”
“So what about all of the beating and cruelty?”
“He was killed as a criminal. So it’s not the way he died that’s important, that was just how they did it back then. It was that he was perfect without sin and he was killed as a criminal. Everyone sins and deserves death but he gives us a chance for heaven.”
“So what’s the point of us being on the earth? If he wants us all in heaven couldn’t we just skip all this and start in heaven.”
“He wants us to choose him. It’s like a test.”
“How could he create me as a logical man and expect me to believe something illogical?”
“It’s the way you look at things. I feel like I am very logically, I’m a freakin econ major that’s how my brain works. But for me God is perfectly logical.”
“How can I believe in something I can’t prove? Give me one other example of something you believe without proof.”
“Wind. You can’t see it, but you know it’s there because you can feel it and you see the effects.”
“How do you feel God?”
“It sounds crazy but I feel him in music. Not just in my mind, physically too. I will cry and shake, I feel dizzy.”
“How do you know that’s God and you’re not just crazy.”
“Because it only happens when I am thinking about God, it doesn’t happen listening to Lady Gaga or anything!”
“Why doesn’t he do things like in the Old Testament anymore, like miracles?”
“He does all the time, you just don’t realize it.”
“No like big stuff, burning bush, floods and stuff.”
“People just try to explain the big things without God. What would you think if someone got on the news and said God talked to them? We would call them crazy and lock them up. Miracles happen every day you just have to look for it.”
“Then how do you know it’s not just you looking for God; just like the scientists are looking for science to explain things. That stuff never happens to me.”
“I’m sure I have personal ones, I just can’t think of any. You are so hard to impress, I’m sure God has tried a million times to get to you. But you are just like ‘meh! Not good enough.’”
“True, If God wants me to believe he will have to like kick me in the ass or something!”
“Ok sure, I will start praying for God to kick you in the ass!”
“So why was God such an ass in the Old Testament? With all the wrath and stuff.”
“The people never got it, they made the same mistakes over and over again.”
“Oh so like people now.”
“Exactly.”
“So what does God look like? If I’m created in his image does that mean he looks like me?”
“No one knows.”
“That’s a dumb answer.”
“Oh oh I have a good one. There are some things we are not meant to know. Like trying to explain the complex nature of God is like trying to explain computers to an ant. The human mind is not advanced enough to understand the complexity of God.”
“That’s a convenient answer. Ok what about the dinosaurs? How does the bible explain that?”
“I think that they can fit into the creation story. Animals were created before humans. So his day could have been a point in time not literally 24 hours. He created morning and night so who is to say a day is in his time.”
“Yea I think so too. What about the myths that are so similar to the bible stories?”
“What about them?”
“Like the creation story is just like the creation myth of Mesopotamia. And the flood story is retold in so many cultures. They can’t all be true.”
“I think Moses had heard these stories growing up before he wrote the bible story. So when the story where explained to him by God he probably drew on them to understand. Like if you know someone’s history you wouldn’t just tell them is all wrong and start tell them a completely new version. You would say what you think is kind-of true but this part was really this and it was that instead of that.”
“That’s a convenient answer too, I don’t know.”
I then apologized for preaching to him the whole hour metro ride as we approached the party. To which he just laughed and changed the topic. I don’t know why I felt the need to apologize. He had brought it up, he continued asking questions. If he was uncomfortable he could have changed the topic at anytime, but instead it was me that was uncomfortable.
Isn’t that just like us to stifle God’s miracles? I never would have thought that my friend would be so interested to hear what I believe about God. Or that he would bring up the topic and have so many questions. It was no coincidence this conversation took place on a crowded bus where others may have over heard, or that it was at the beginning of a long commute so we had a lot of free time, without distractions. It was no coincidence that I was with Roz who shares my faith and backed me up with her own examples. He was my miracle, and I apologized for it!
Of course looking back now there are things that I wish I had said or hadn’t said but I am proud of my answers. I was honest, even surprising myself. I was funny and light hearted and I think he will ask me again if he has more questions. And maybe I will be more comfortable talking longer next time. I guess my lesson learned is you never know what God has in store for you and I have to be ready. It’s not enough for me to believe myself; I have to be able to explain my faith and own it proudly. His disbelieve didn’t shake my belief, but it made me want to find more answers. I was witnessing to him but I am the one that was being tested and my weaknesses exposed.
My friend was raised in the church as, what I would call, a C&E Catholic (Christmas and Easter). He had heard the Christian jargon year after year and was left with more questions than answers. My friend was going to a party with me and Roz that night and the 3 of us were traveling together. I think I mentioned that I wasn’t going to drink that night, because I had given up alcohol for Lent. He asked if I was Catholic, assuming that Lent was only a Catholic thing and then asked what the difference between Catholic and Methodist was.
I poorly explained that the big difference is Catholic and Protestant which Roz could explain a lot better since she went to Catholic school and knew the details of both. Then expanded that we follow the teachings of John Wesley but mostly we focus on loving everyone equally and have a lot of loose interpretations on current topics. Giving Homosexuality as an example where the church says the lifestyle is a sin but we still accept the individuals and can have gay members and baptize couple’s children.
I think all of that is correct but I know it’s not best way to put my church in a positive light. I surprised myself describing it as “more of a hippie love everyone” idea as opposed to the bible belt extreme. What made me down play something that I believe so strongly in?
This is kinda how it went as far as I can remember:
he asked, “how can Jesus and God be equal if he is the Father?”
“We believe in the trinity”
“I never got that either.”
“Oh oh I know this one! The best explanation I have heard is that the trinity is like water. It’s the same substance in 3 forms. If God is the water, Jesus is ice and the Holy Spirit is gas. They are all the same thing just different aspects.”
“So he’s not really the father?”
“I always saw that as personification. It’s not literal it’s more to explain the relationship”
“Why do you need all three is God powerful enough on his own? Like does the holy spirit do anything?”
“The holy spirit lives within you, every believer”
“And does what?”
“Lives there, stays with you, guides you, your own little piece of God.”
“So why did Jesus have to come as a baby, wouldn’t it be easier to come as a man? That’s when he did stuff.”
“Jesus is supposed to be our example as humans. He is an example for how you should act as a baby, as a teenager, and as an adult.”
“But there is nothing in the bible about his childhood.”
“True. It makes him more relatable because he went through every part of human life and was still perfect. He never sinned.”
“So what does his dying have to do with me? Wasn’t that God’s plan?”
“He took on the sins of the world and saved us from death.”
“See I don’t get that? How does his dying change anything, people still die.”
“He was the Lamb, it was like a sacrifice from old days. You know?”
“No.”
“In the Old Testament you had to give the best of your animals or crops or whatever as a sacrifice. It shows appreciation and priorities and stuff. You give your best to God first. And that’s also how the priests survived, because they could eat a portion or something as part of the ritual. And your sacrifice is supposed to be perfect. You can’t give a sick lamb or something because that’s just wrong. So Jesus is the sacrifice.”
“So what about all of the beating and cruelty?”
“He was killed as a criminal. So it’s not the way he died that’s important, that was just how they did it back then. It was that he was perfect without sin and he was killed as a criminal. Everyone sins and deserves death but he gives us a chance for heaven.”
“So what’s the point of us being on the earth? If he wants us all in heaven couldn’t we just skip all this and start in heaven.”
“He wants us to choose him. It’s like a test.”
“How could he create me as a logical man and expect me to believe something illogical?”
“It’s the way you look at things. I feel like I am very logically, I’m a freakin econ major that’s how my brain works. But for me God is perfectly logical.”
“How can I believe in something I can’t prove? Give me one other example of something you believe without proof.”
“Wind. You can’t see it, but you know it’s there because you can feel it and you see the effects.”
“How do you feel God?”
“It sounds crazy but I feel him in music. Not just in my mind, physically too. I will cry and shake, I feel dizzy.”
“How do you know that’s God and you’re not just crazy.”
“Because it only happens when I am thinking about God, it doesn’t happen listening to Lady Gaga or anything!”
“Why doesn’t he do things like in the Old Testament anymore, like miracles?”
“He does all the time, you just don’t realize it.”
“No like big stuff, burning bush, floods and stuff.”
“People just try to explain the big things without God. What would you think if someone got on the news and said God talked to them? We would call them crazy and lock them up. Miracles happen every day you just have to look for it.”
“Then how do you know it’s not just you looking for God; just like the scientists are looking for science to explain things. That stuff never happens to me.”
“I’m sure I have personal ones, I just can’t think of any. You are so hard to impress, I’m sure God has tried a million times to get to you. But you are just like ‘meh! Not good enough.’”
“True, If God wants me to believe he will have to like kick me in the ass or something!”
“Ok sure, I will start praying for God to kick you in the ass!”
“So why was God such an ass in the Old Testament? With all the wrath and stuff.”
“The people never got it, they made the same mistakes over and over again.”
“Oh so like people now.”
“Exactly.”
“So what does God look like? If I’m created in his image does that mean he looks like me?”
“No one knows.”
“That’s a dumb answer.”
“Oh oh I have a good one. There are some things we are not meant to know. Like trying to explain the complex nature of God is like trying to explain computers to an ant. The human mind is not advanced enough to understand the complexity of God.”
“That’s a convenient answer. Ok what about the dinosaurs? How does the bible explain that?”
“I think that they can fit into the creation story. Animals were created before humans. So his day could have been a point in time not literally 24 hours. He created morning and night so who is to say a day is in his time.”
“Yea I think so too. What about the myths that are so similar to the bible stories?”
“What about them?”
“Like the creation story is just like the creation myth of Mesopotamia. And the flood story is retold in so many cultures. They can’t all be true.”
“I think Moses had heard these stories growing up before he wrote the bible story. So when the story where explained to him by God he probably drew on them to understand. Like if you know someone’s history you wouldn’t just tell them is all wrong and start tell them a completely new version. You would say what you think is kind-of true but this part was really this and it was that instead of that.”
“That’s a convenient answer too, I don’t know.”
I then apologized for preaching to him the whole hour metro ride as we approached the party. To which he just laughed and changed the topic. I don’t know why I felt the need to apologize. He had brought it up, he continued asking questions. If he was uncomfortable he could have changed the topic at anytime, but instead it was me that was uncomfortable.
Isn’t that just like us to stifle God’s miracles? I never would have thought that my friend would be so interested to hear what I believe about God. Or that he would bring up the topic and have so many questions. It was no coincidence this conversation took place on a crowded bus where others may have over heard, or that it was at the beginning of a long commute so we had a lot of free time, without distractions. It was no coincidence that I was with Roz who shares my faith and backed me up with her own examples. He was my miracle, and I apologized for it!
Of course looking back now there are things that I wish I had said or hadn’t said but I am proud of my answers. I was honest, even surprising myself. I was funny and light hearted and I think he will ask me again if he has more questions. And maybe I will be more comfortable talking longer next time. I guess my lesson learned is you never know what God has in store for you and I have to be ready. It’s not enough for me to believe myself; I have to be able to explain my faith and own it proudly. His disbelieve didn’t shake my belief, but it made me want to find more answers. I was witnessing to him but I am the one that was being tested and my weaknesses exposed.
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